Why can’t I have wings?
Tuesday, 1 April, 2008Dr Samuel Poore, a reconstructive surgeon, has an interesting article in The Journal of Hand Surgery about how to transform a human arm into a bird wing (why that would be a popular idea, I don’t know). Read the write-up at New Scientist if you don’t have journal privileges. He ends up concluding that it is too hard (at least if the wings were intended to facilitate flight), and ends with this advice:
Despite advances in surgical technique that could theoretically lead to the ability to construct wings from arms, it is evident that humans should remain human, staying on the ground pondering and studying the intricacies of flight while letting birds be birds and angels be angels.
Unfortunately, even though I read the whole article, I do not think it is at all ‘evident that humans should remain human’. Plus, I don’t want to. Just because we can’t yet build working wings out of our arms, that doesn’t mean we should stop trying.
But there are a few issues that I would raise about the article:
1. Turning our arms into wings is not what most people would want.
Just look at Archangel from X-Men. Most fictional conceptions of flying humanoid creatures have wings AND arms (except maybe harpies), because arms and hands are so amazingly useful that I don’t see why anyone would want to give them up permanently for the mere advantage of flight.
2. What about bat wings? Or pterosaur wings, or even insect wings!
The article is titled ‘ The Morphological Basis of the Arm-to-Wing Transition’, but doesn’t look one of the key arm-to-wing transitions – that which happened to chiropterans (bats). Going down this road would overcome the issue that Poore considers the most difficult – how to give humans the ability to grow feathers. Being mammals, we have a skin structure that probably wouldn’t support feathers, (though Poore did not consider the possibility of genetically modifying that too, so that the areas supporting feathers would have avian-like skin structure). Plus, if were to replace our arms with bat wings, might it allow us to maintain some sort of ability to pick things up and manipulate objects? I don’t think people would mind looking more like gargoyles rather than angels, would they?
3. Forget about the trabeculae?
Bird, at least the big ones that fly, have hollow bones (mammals have these too, but not to the dramatic extent that birds do). Avian bones are mostly air-filled, but reinforced by cross-beams known as trabeculae (Latin for ’small beams’). This makes the bones of large flying birds extremely light. But Poore overlooks this when he states:
…for a 170-lb human to achieve any type of flight, he or she would need wings with approximately 20 square feet of surface area.
Any person seeking to achieve flight will seek hollow bones too, decreasing their weight (though not by much, because bones only represent ~15% of total body mass). If wings are ever to be possessed by a human, the scientists of that age will probably also will look at avian lungs too, which are far more efficient for their size than mammalian lungs. This will free up the room in the upper chest for the muscles needed for powered flight, or allow humans to fly higher where the air is thinner.
Speaking of muscles to power flight, this is the major roadblock in giving humans wings. Birds, bats and pterosaurs have very large muscles, compared to their body, powering their wings. The addition of that muscle mass to a human would add too much weight, which would increase the power needed to fly, which would require more muscles…and so on. There is a point where you simply get any advantage by adding more muscle mass. This problem has so far limited the body mass of flying animals to around 20kg, and evolution has so far tried at least three different pathways to sustained flight (birds, bats and pterosaurs). So because humans are at least three times heavier than a flying animal should be, maybe the ability for humans to fly will only be possible when we have bionic muscles of super-strength, that are lighter or stronger than biological muscle. Either that, or make humans two-thirds smaller…
But the important thing is, there is no reason I can see of why we shouldn’t try to do it. Many humans have wished they could fly, and I don’t see why we couldn’t allow them to grant that wish if it ever becomes possible.
I think that we could have wings big to fly and light enough to not be uncomfortable, but the way i imagined it would be that the wings themselves would have muscles in them and that they would be connected to the nervous system so that you can control them just like an arm or leg with practice. I souly believe that somebody in the world has tried to give a human wings in secret, i mean what with area 51 before it was properly discovered and scientists would have probably tried to
I WANT WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Having the muscles incorporated into the wings would make moving those wings even harder (it’s harder to accelerate/stop a heavier object than it is to accelerate/stop a lighter one). That’s why all animals have as little on their wings as possible – to minimise effort needed to flap the wings. All flight muscles are located on the back, shoulder or chest of the animal.
It is a very interesting point about whether we could control wings, after growing up without them. I think the brain might be plastic enough to do that, but I’m not sure. Might be a good research project in the future…
I agree whole heartedly with the idea that it is possible for humans to have wings. For as long as i can remember i have been longing to feel the wind in my feathers. It is my life goal to learn to graph wings to my back and take flight, however unlikely and difficult the task proves to be. There is a book series by the author Sharon Shinn call Archangel which give a fairly detailed description of a human wing structure which could very likely work. The most detailed descriptions are in the book titled Jovah’s Angel. The idea that is used in that book is where i intend to start on the long journey to true flight.
It sounds like everyone is talking about putting wings on an adult or child but did you ever think about putting the dna in an embreo.
Yes, but what if something went wrong? What if that child that grew up with wings didn’t want them? They wouldn’t get the choice… Though it might be easier… Who knows….
So you’re certain you would want feathered wings? Bat wings, or pterosaur-like wings, wouldn’t interest you?
And you would want to keep your hands as hands, correct? I think hands are more useful than wings (not that I don’t think wings are useful – just that hands are so awesome).
Fairy’s angels and birds are really lucky, but fairies all have a different pair of wings, no pair of wings are the same it’s so cool!
wings are so cool
I’ve always dreamt of flight. Like, I wish there was a surgery that connects wingsto yhour back and insta of them being on ur arms have them pop out of your back and connect them to the nerves and other parts as if we were born with them.
I have and still wish that I have wings at my back, which I could control like an arm as you say. It would be so cool to be like an angel. Sometimes I already have this feeling, that they are on my back, they’re just invisible or maybe it is a sign. Maybe it means that I will get them one day, but who knows?
If there doesn’t happen anything sooner or later, then I will start the research myself.(Not because I ain’t started ;P)
Zarnlee, I have the same feeling as you. It’s as if I have wings already on my back, perhaps beneath my skin, that are waiting to burst out. I can feel it now- something that feels like wings tucked up on my back. It feels different to usual right now,though, don’t know why.
but if evreybody could fly, it wouldn’t be special.
(just a thought, im all for the idea!!!!!!)
Anything is possible, ESPECIALLY having wings. All we have to do is want it enough.
Not everyone would like to fly, some would probably like to stay on the ground, or go to the ocean.
Even if everyone could fly, it doesn’t mean you wouldn’t feel great every time you took flight.
Besides, being special is not the most important thing.
It is just so great that we have documents and ideas to use in the development of wings.
Hmm, just being able to glide would be nice… ^^
I’m no scientist but I would think that it would be a better idea to attach a successful donated Arm-to-Wing Transition to your back near the spinal cord. Which in turns allows you to attach them to the nervious system meaning your able to move them, also allowing you to keep your arms while having the statifaction of haveing wings. So what if you can’t use them. I’m sure it would be a popular thing to do after time goes by and it becomes alot cheaper to aford the surgery, and hell I dont know they might even be able to move them you never know.
It’s not that easy, Michael. You’d need to know which bones to attach to the wings, because if you didn’t attach your wings to your skeleton, the wings would just rip out of your skin and fall off. It may also be a lot of work to get neural control over those wings, at least in an adult, because the motor cortex forms early in development and doesn’t readily change thereafter.
The first breakthrough will be to build a mouse with functional wings on its back.
any kind of surgery that is available even if it is in its early stages of develpoment i would be their guinea pig
I’d like to sign up for that too! I’m very short for my age and I’m skinny and light, but muscular. I read the Maximum Ride series too, but I wanted to fly long b4 that… :)
I read the Maximum Ride books and I absolutely loved them. Ever since, I have wanted to have wings and be able to control them and fly (I also would like to be able to breath under water, but that’s a different story). If anyone figures out how to do either of those, I’m the first to sign up; I don’t care how much it costs.
I did have a flick through a Maximum Ride book the other day. It’s a little simplistic (aren’t the kids just a few percent bird DNA? Almost the entire bird is built around flying!), but aside from the science it does raise interesting questions.
I have been searched about human wings since a long time ago. My conclusion about this is that if one day mans grow with natual wings, it will look like a bat wings, because bats and we are mamals, and the arm will need to be changed into wings to make it possible. But an alternative avaiable today is an ability to plain after a jump using an special clothes. I had a notice that some people developed a kind of clothes that give an ability to control the fall after jump from an airplane, and it looks like a bat wings. But it is too small, I imagine that if they build the clothes with some wing extension, then it will be possible to plain like hang gliding, extending the time in fly.
DUDE!i thought i waz the only 1 who wanted wings!!!!!!!tha would be WICKED if we could hav wings!we would be like Maximum ride and the flock.only without the weird mad scientists and Erasers(wolf people:))and evil robots chasing us.NOT COOL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!no evil science people.I WANT WINGSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wings would be great. I wouldn’t care If they didn’t move i mean it would be pretty weird. If you saw a person walking down the street with wings i mean i would be intimidated. I Would be like holy crap. But if ever there is anybody doing research and everything i wouldn’t mind being a guinea pig. Jigsaw_lette@yahoo.com
Bark at the moon!!!!!
Well, the more I read about this subject the more disappointed I get. Come on guys, it’s not realistic to hope that we will be able to add wings by surgery and expect our nerve system, our bone system, our muscles and brain to adapt to it!! That’s nonsense…even if you’re able to find and embed DNA codings to future babies and hope their brains will adapt accordingly (which is a lightyear long shot). It doesn’t make any difference for us! This generation wi;l not have wings!! Come to terms with that.
The only hope we have remains that some new Da Vinci will invent a new robotic pair of wings. Finding a technological solution would be the best solution for us instead of chasing a wild goose of a biological solution!! (although, no matter what is said by these so called geniuses, they are still almost dumbstruck by the bumble bee…so fingers crossed).
Come on man give us a break we all can dream can’t we even if we don’t have technology maybe this could be insperation for people to do the just enough to make wings possible and i’m hopping to be one of those people
Actualy there is a way for our bodies to do it on there own… I’m not sure how it or if it works… But I read somewhere about metamorphic power or something… Its like if most of the human race wishes they can have wings or believes or knows they can in their heads, thedsthen it will happen and we will evolve that way… But the power of thought and alchemy and stuff isn’t believed in much because of science and stuff…
so if someone did a realy good hoax , the whole world believed it was true ( e.g. Someone that had wings) .. So that’s the whole world believing we can have wings then someday we will evolve with wings…
It’s a putty I don’t remember where I read about , the description they had was much better!
:)
Sorry LOL it’s not metamorphic power :p that’s a type of rock a metamorphic LOL ……… u meant morphogenic field
Foofighter, I agree that functional wings added by surgery will probably not be possible any time soon. And given the current mass-strength ratio of muscles, biological wings for humans are not likely to give the capacity for sustained flight. And the musculo-skeletal issues are difficult.
But the nervous system is very capable of adapting, so that may not prove to be an issue.
Oh, and we scientists know how bees (including bumble bees) fly. It’s an urban legend that scientists don’t know, originating because a certain French mathematician (André Sainte-Laguë) in 1936 stated that, with the incorrect assumption that bumblebee wings worked like airplane wings, their flight was impossible. With high-speed cameras and computer modelling, these days we know a great deal about how bees fly. Insect flight is amazing, but I don’t think any scientist would be dumbstruck by it.
yes i never really tohught about wings and all the like but i had a bit of a sudden realization the other day and it seems like wings are the only thing missing from my life(i know that sounds like the stupidest thing but hey whatevs) i dont really know any of the science behind it but i didnt really think biological would be possible, but what about robotic wings made of a light weight polymer like carbon-fyber? i know attatching things directly to ur brain stem is dangerious and all but do it kinda like the arms on dr octopus from spiderman (dont poke fun) and maybe have a cpu that could interpret neron signals? like a prostetic limb? i dunno id like to hear the thoughts of those more intelligible in this field before i go spouting out something untrue
Dr octopus did you see how well that worked the arms malfun tioned and. It only followed orders if the deeds were evil
guys thats just a movie. It takes highly trained scientists, who are still studing if its even possible to do so. I mean i want wings too, but you have to be young to have this done and adapt to it, so you MIGHT be able to control them. Its very dangerouse to try to train your brain to adapt to the new part of your body. And i would gladly be a guinea pig for this reaserch.
I’m not too familiar with this concept (I want to know more about it), but I’ve always been envious of birds. So, hypothetically, if it were done would it mean that future generations would inherit their wings, instead of having them surgically added? What if one parent was a winged human and one wasnt? Please excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject!
I would have to depend on if the carrier of wings was a man are a woman if it is a woman most likely yes if it was a man it would be highly doubtful but possible
It’s possible, but it may be very difficult. Especially if the wings are to be in addition to arms (no mammals have six limbs), which would require entirely novel genetic information to code for an extra pair of limbs in the right spot, attached to the right muscles.
The children would be winged, unless the parents genetically modified them to ensure they weren’t. We humans are diploid – we have two sets of genetic information, one from our mother and one from our father. Only one needs to have a gene for that gene to work (though having two genes is usually better, as it provides a backup in case of mutations).
Well, I reckon a tail would be easier than wings because all mammals have only four limbs whereas we ALREADY have a tail-bone, so in theory wouldn’t it be better to try for a tail? And then we MAY have a chance to have at least one mutant person before we die, because you can pretty much guarantee that we’ll either be dead or too old by the time we can genetically make wings. I think that they should not be connected through surgery (‘Doc Oc’ is good enough example) but yeah.. wings should be done through DNA instead of surgery, which means it’ll be a few generations time before we can make wings properly. As much as I want bat wings/big red dragon wings I guess we gotta just look forward two seeing our grandkids with mutations. But the biggest problem with this is that unless we can do it on mice before we start on ourselves we’re still going to have to get round the government – legally or illegally because isn’t human experiments not a good thing? (Hulk, The Triangle, every other show featuring that has gone terribly wrong).
Anyway I’d be fairly happy with just a tail- as long as they figure out how it can have fur – maybe cat ears as well with fur on too – but the rest of us not hairy – leg hair’s enough to deal with thanks.
You’re very right. Adult humans have, on average, just four caudal vertebrae (so, four tail-bones, but usually fused into one structure, called the coccyx). But human embryos have a full tail – 10-12 caudal vertebrae. Most of these tail bones disappear during development but sometimes they don’t, resulting in people with a tail around 10-20cm long.
In addition, the number of caudal vertebrae are well determined by certain regulatory genes. Perhaps some time in the future, I’ll blog about how to genetically modify humans to have a long tail, like those of monkeys.
Of course. Animal models will be essential to make sure that each modifications works – early attempts at modification may prove hard to edit or remove.
Fur would be easy, although ensuring it stays in certain spots may be harder (but still possible). A genetic disease known as congenital hypertrichosis can cause people to have fur. This could probably be induced artificially by changes to hormone receptors in the skin of the tail.
Ears…that’s going to be tricky. You probably want them on the top of your head, not on the side? And you’d want them to actually work (hear, move them, etc?). That might have to wait a bit.
I’ve always wanted to fly since I was a kid!
So, what fields and college courses should I study to become a scientist of this sort?
Basicly anything that would have to do with birds and or avian stuff and then you can compair humans to birds and what you can do to change to human so that they can be able to have wings
I’d say biomechanics would be the best college course to seek out, as this covers aerodynamics of flight, mechanics of limb movements and other related areas (specifically mechanical engineering, anatomy and physiology). An understanding of developmental biology and genetics would be helpful too.
You’re missing the whole point! I have been thinking about this for 15 years. Humans are exogenic–we are able to utilize energy from outside sources. We don’t need to rely on muscle power.
Lately, there has been a lot research done on human controled power enhancement systems.
If you WERE capable of flying (if you were a bird) you would learn to fly as quickly as you learn to ski or skate. You have hearing, vision, touch, and balance that all come together beautifully in the brain and go out in the form of fime motor control of your muscles. Furthermore, evolution has made available almost perfect models for different types of flight.
If this world holds together, sometime in the not-too-far future you will go out to your garage and ponder over which bird model you want to strap on…gull for soaring, grouse for maneuvering the woods, hummingbird for hovering. The fire department will have one capable of landing on a window sill and picking up a person.
And the human power enhancement systen will flow over into applications we can’t even imagine now.
Humans have to rely on exogenous energy, but so does every organism on the planet. First law of thermodynamics dictates that, with the exception of an organism undergoing a nuclear reaction (fission or fusion), it will rely on energy from external sources.
Could you elaborate? Is that different to the ‘bionic muscles of super strength’ I mentioned in the blog post?
Not necessarily. If somebody was born deaf, and grew up deaf, it can be very difficult for them to learn how to hear even when they receive a cochlear implant.
I do think that if wings were present from the early embryonic stage (i.e. if they developed alongside normal limb development), you would be able to learn to fly just as easily as learning to walk. But if you received wings late in life, my guess is that you’d be like those people who need to learn how to walk again after a terrible accident.
There are only three models of powered flight in vertebrates – bats, birds and pterosaurs – and none of them have wings in addition to forelimbs. There is no good model for this form of limb design, let alone this form of flight.
Possible, but I think that achieving fine coordination with those wings would be difficult if you didn’t stick with one pair of wings at all times. Our nervous system could cope if we changed maybe once a week, but I doubt it could adapt in minutes to an entirely new limb system.
You’d have to outsource the adaptation to a computer, so that all the different wings feel the same and control the same.
i believe that anything in this world is possible, i think for having wings we would need to have artificial muscules to hold up that kind of weight, for a human to fly u would need, artificial muscules to hold him up an strong enough to move already having nero links from the wings attched to the blad bones, linked to ur cerabellum, with that be said u also do need super human strength, an i believe a 2 care lane wings spand (for each wing) for give u enough wing lift to get up off the ground, witht that being said, if there r any scientist out there that have found a way of makin super human strength and operating impanted artificial wings, i am willing to be a test subject for that operation, u can email me at SaamDaRnBsinger@yahoo.com
exept for that humans have been granted the power of a highly advanced brain. The only thing that will prevent us is ourself…
there are several options for man to leap into flight without the means of an aircraft.
Im sure that if we put our minds into it enough…we can create something that will help or enhance the movements of our arms and surpass that movement into the power generated for what it takes to lift off the ground..perhaps by using smart technology that can calculate with no or less latency for correct stabilizing and so on…im talking here of a suit..the greater the wingspan the greater the wingload…and with that less “rpm” or WSPM”..(wingstrokesperminute)…however i agree to having the arms free would benefit the “pilot”…say f.x having a unit that looks like a backpack…and with that the wings can easily get “tuned”…say that the wingspan decreases…and thereby we can increase the WSPM to generate the lift that is recquired…i could go on forever…apparently
Why not just get wings dont have to be able to fly just think of having wings My personal opinion is i think it would look cool walking around with wings
hey thanx for the bees flight thing josh,although i kinda knew dat science has a reasonable answer for that,i just sed it for the effect,although there are still a few things to be cleared about the bees flight if m not mistaken,which i duely ges that will be explained in the comin years..
Nehow talking about the HUMANS i was wondering,you know if you are abel to engineer a pai of wings,which u cud attach to u like parachute,behind you like a backpack…provided we can get the lift and a safe landing anytime u want(whatabout that rocketpack?i saw some guy had cleverly engineered it to launch a human and land quiet safely like IRONMAN!!)the wings wud flap it self and we can navigate us through the flight!!!(i do understand that then u wud have to think about the aerodynamics,the wings width and lengnth,and its speed etc. but cumon we do have some clever aero-enineers on earth right??)
just a thought
If you look at the size comparison between humans, and hang gliders,all you need to do is put muscles
(robotic,biological,or otherwise) onto them.
This is also why I think Batlike wings would be the most effective.With a hang gliders’ size,a batlike wing frame,and advanced robotic prosthetics,All this would be possible(Although prosthetic wings would run on the wearers’ energy,so people would run out of breath and(or) stamina,not to mention aches and sores)However, I think it would be worth it.
To be able to fly would relieve stress,increase stamina,burn fat,build muscle(if they were biological)increase self confidence,and they would look cool!
Getting used to having wings(in MY theory)would be quite easy.After flying a few times,you wouldn’t get aches,you would gain the energy needed to fly longer,faster,and higher.
I think that the hardest part wouldn’t be supplying the wings,I think finding people disciplined enough to tolerate new body parts would be more difficult.
All this is based on advanced prosthetics where it is possible to replace lost limbs by reading nerve impulses so the new limb responds to the brain.If someone were to pick up impulses and route it to the wings,you could control them,Strength however is another problem. I don’t know how to fix that problem yet but when I do know I will be sure to comment here for all the future BioEngeneering scientists to read about.
I’m still a teenager,but I have always wanted wings.My desire for them,coupled with an extraordenarily high intellect has led me to believe that everyone else who shares my dream will soon be satisfied.
I hope that I can at least be involved in the creation and(or) production of prosthetic,robotic,biologicly engineered,or otherwise, wings for individual posession.
wen i was young i truly believed that i can fly, it was a thought that i go to sleep with every nite. But as i grew older and learnt about science and all that.things told me that it was just a childish dream. So i keeped it as a deep secret but i told myself i will give up everything 4 it. Even somefing i dearly luv. i’ve always dreamt that i can fly and da feeling of cool breeze at night and watching people walking past from the tallest skyscraper. and im so glad that i’ve found so many information about it and also people who felt da same as me.
in china there is a cat that grew NATURAL WINGS!!!
i think u guys will be interested
#http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2344838.html
also there is no point of having wings just 2 look
good people!!!
Like Joshua,I also read Maximum Ride and That’s the reason I want wings.I may be 12 but I am very determained and when I put my mind to something Nothing will stop me from supporting,working,planning and trying to make it work.Especially when It includes things that I’ve wanted for 3 years.I think we have the technology to do this.We can make it work if we work together and test out our theroies and use huge wings like a hawks all we would need to do is make the wings bigger or find a way to morph them.THIS IS POSSIBLE.WE CAN DO IT.We just have to get determained and spread the word!!!
C’mon we can do it if we want it bad enough we just have to try it on a lucky 7 people and use the scientific method
Lucky seven people? What like max fang iggy nudge gazzy and angel, oh and total :) yeah I love them books
The only way that you would actually be able to give humans genetic wings is to take the male chromosomes from a bird [the hawks and rapters] and fuse them with a female egg of a human woman {first you have to equal out the human egg so it has the matching amount of chromosomes as the avail DNA, avail DNA has more chromosomes then human} if succeeded you should have a part avail child [if no wings] you have to grow them apart and fuse them later (thanks to stem sell research this branch of science has been unlocked!)
tell me what you think by e-mailing me!!! at johnromanreichert@hotmail.com
That won’t work, Dmitri. The genetic differences between birds and humans is too great for such a hybrid to ever develop into a functioning organism. Such an embryo will be miscarried for sure, if it even develops past the zygote stage.
Not to mention that even if it did work, it would more likely give you a beak, a bird-sized brain and malformed hands than wings.
What an amazingly brilliant idea.
I’ve read the Maximum Ride books (didn’t like them, am too insanely jealous of the characters) which are about 6 kids who’ve been genetically modified to have avian DNA, ergo, wings. So it’s definitely a popular idea. I wouldn’t mind a bit of bird DNA if it meant I could have wings….. it’s like my biggest obsession…. having wings that is, not avian DNA.
And there’s a plastic surgeon in New England called Joseph Rosen, who claimed that within 5 years he will be able to contruct wings for humans from rib bones. He is also working on a way to construct tails…. He is not a quack, he’s a very well respected surgeon, who is just waiting for clearance from the Medical Ethics people, before he can try his ideas.
That said, I agree with one of the previous comments – I am 100% sure that someone, at some point has tried it. If the technology is available, someone WILL have attempted it. I mean, why have secret scientific facillities if you’re not going to try out illegal experiments?
I really hope I live to see the day when humans can have wings.
As long as I have them too, otherwise I would be too jealous to function…..
wow i hope some day we all could have wing but i think people will have to get them when they are babies not when they are all grown up.
I have no idea about this area, I was just thinking about it this week; I’ve just got round to actually giving it some research. I was wondering, could humans have ever had wings in the past? By that I mean those two bits on your back that stick out. Its a shame we don’t know how it was ALL the way back through humans past, Just think what could our world be like today if, one we had wings and two if we had full records of our whole past and evolution.
I have a very good theory for human flight, with wings on the back though. The muscles are like you mentioned, bionic, and the wings made from a very light, yet very strong material that would obviously have to be malleable. Since it is a non-organic material,(a type of metal I presume), it would be able to fold up very small, just like the wings of some birds (their wings fold in so close to the body, you almost don’t even know that they are there)! Also, have any of you heard of this machine that they are working on (testing on monkeys) that hooks up to the brain and allows for the subject to do things without their limbs, using a fake limb that they control with their brain. The wings would be hooked up to the brain using something like this so that it would be as natural as possible! ;P I have done some calculations with this to determine the wingspan, but since I used my weight to for these calculations, it seems a lot more possible (I don’t even weigh 100 pounds yet, I’m not anorexic, I’m just really little and young, but pretty smart for my age). Anyways, another one of my ideas was to get a hang glider and just add a ‘flapping mechanism’ to it so that when you start to lose lift, you just flap your wings!
No, it’s almost impossible that humans had wings in the past. No fossils of any winged primate, or gliding primate, have been found. Such a gap in the fossil record would be quite unlikely.
And those ‘bits’ are the shouldbone (scapula), specifically the scapular spine and acromion process. It’s even less likely that evolution could extend this body part into wings, rather than using the arms (which are a much easier starting point).
I think that sounds like the best sort of plan for humans to achieve flight.
But remember that monkeys have real limbs, so there is a part of the brain that can be tapped into to control a fake limb. We humans do not have wings, so which part of the brain will we record from when we wish to control our wings? That will be a tricky problem.
Well, what if a person was born without legs (the machine is made for people who don’t have limbs), so their brain couldn’t be tapped into beause they have never had legs, so it would still be hard, but since the scientists are working towards this kind of thing then perhaps it wouldn’t be so had to have wings. Also, we can move our shoulders can we not? So, they could hook up the wings to the shopulder blades and then just add a bit more control. But yes, it would be harder, and we would need a lot of practice before we could actually fly.
Good point. It is true that people born without a limb, or who lose a limb early in life, grow to lose the brain regions responsible for controlling that limb. And scientists are working on this, so perhaps this research could be extended into functional additional limbs.
Hmm, I suppose it could be learned with practice, but wings are so intricate (one has to control them very finely to fly properly). It would be as hard as attaching a prosthetic arm to the shoulder and having the hands and fingers still work on that limb.
well not 2 rain on anyones party but were will u get the wings to attach to ur back? ( u could just grow them i guess)
Growing them still requires some skeletal attachment. You wouldn’t want to have your body supported just by something in your skin, it would have to connect to the bone. And still have muscle attachments. Really, that’s a very tricky question to answer.
The wings could be made of a really strong, yet very light weight metal, so that they would be able to withstand…obstacles. Then of course there would need to be feathers on the wings, they could be fake ones aswell, probably made of some sort of metal with sensors in them to help people fly in certain wind currents. And since they are made of a thin metal, they would have lots of parts to them, so they would be able to fold in very small, very easily. But yes, they would have to be attached to your bones, with [fake] muscles and nerves.
I think that one day, the human body will evolve to allow humans to have the ability to fly like a bird or to swim in the water like a fish. It might bring up the descusion of god but that depends on those who believe in that.
And what if humans don’t need to choose between arms or wings?What if some how they can have both? It would be more complicated…
One day humankind will evolve again. People may not like that but it happened once; it might happen again. The choice to have wings or arms or both should be up to the person.
Wings are not a need but humankind has come to a stage in which they can explore beyond boundaries and guidelines. It is in our nature to explore and move forward and become better, but there must be a line that humankind must not cross. Wings or any other added part to the human body might be a line not to cross; that is up for discussion.
Ummm…no offense, but evolution did not happen once. It is an ongoing process.
Wow. What can i say? Ive wanted wings ALL my life. Ever since i knew what a bird was. I wanna be able to feel them tuck neatly onto my back, having the feathers touch my skin, and be able to jump off of something and whip them out, feeling the air gather into the feathers and lift me into the air. I want to feel the rush of wind across my face, and see the ground below. I sit for hours watching birds soar around and each time i do i feel disappointed to know that i might never be able to soar with them. I want them so bad that i think i can sometimes feel them their, and want to cry when i stand up to stretch them out and they aren’t there. I hope with all my heart and soul that someday we can come up with a way to graft wings onto a humans. If we cant figure out how to make our bodies able to be lifted up and go into sustained flight, i would still LOVE LOVE LOVE to have wings that i could expand and contract. I cant even begin to explain how much i want that.
i wont wings to just to fly amugst the birds and fly until my hearts content but if human cant have wings then a machine of some sorts would be evented to able human flight and i would be one of the first people to have wings i love them
I WANT WINGS!!!! you should be able to have retractable wings like Max Ride. Not even workable just ones u can pull out for show
I’d gladly sign up for any project that would attempt this, they don’t even have to move
i study a bit of the bird anatomy and.. ok, for us to be able to have wings and actually take flight, starting with the muscle issue, birds use their pectorals to move their wings, not the back muscles which is why we can’t really have wings in our backs and arm at the same time or our arms would be relatively small. us humans will need to have our pectorals(chest) from where it currently starts to the lowest abs. so good bye abs!, and the scapular wings (the ones closest to the the body) would have to be from our shoulders to proximately our hips.
we would also need a bird like tail which makes part of the air dynamics, another complicated issue.
and i can go on but there are 1000s of other factors that IF one day achieve would look nothing like we expect or like the picture above, instead we’ll look like weird birds with human heads and legs XD. and as bubble bursting as that sounds I’ will still like to see that happen one day. you have my support.
Hmm, yes but the wings don’t have to be real wings that actually grow from our backs. They could be mechanical wings controlled by our brains with their own artificial muscles and such. We wouldn’t look deformed that way. :D
I got my wings with my first Harley, Eagle Spirit Ride Free!!!!!!
I wouldn’t want to have a lisence to fly.
“Hmm, yes but the wings don’t have to be real wings that actually grow from our backs. They could be mechanical wings controlled by our brains with their own artificial muscles and such. We wouldn’t look deformed that way. :D”
speaking with the goal of achieving flight,
mechanical wings will lead you to the same conclusion or very close to it. because its all the same basic design, notice how almost all birds species look relatively the same.
so as airplanes, the study of the bird anatomy let to the outstanding invention of the airplanes.
airplanes are made with the same basic structure as bird which is why all airplanes and most things that fly have the same relative birdlike design.
what bothers me the most is that tail.
all i know is that those of you who want to glide are not going to be able to, not with out a tail.
one of the many reasons why flying bugs never stop moving their wings and glide in mere flight is cus they have no no tail to balance them (this is not counting their size and their wing type, cuz its totally different)
But supposing we have wings just like in the picture of the archangel from x men you would have to be moving those for as long as you stay up and your legs are more likely to fall down.
and if you can run fast enough you might just glide your self into a ambulance cuz you will get hurt on your way down.. :P jk lol.
[that would be quite a show.]
Now here is my hypothesis. supposing we are able to have wings one day(with out a tail), the only thing im quite sure we’ll be able to do is jump a bit less than twice what we can already jump with the boost of the wings.
but anyone interested enough on this developments and concepts as hobby can email me at: 7zeven@live.com i would love to be part of a team or simply share ideas and concepts on such an interesting matter like this one. i will start some concept drawings on my own based on studies i have done and as far as my knowledge goes. and who knows.. maybe we can come up with something.
If the wings were controlled by our brains, we could definately also have a tail, and the tail could have…clamp-like things that could down and hold our legs close to our bodies, (just like the weird sleeping bag things on hang gliding apparatuses), with a simple thought! Of course, for gliding flight, the wings would have to take up most of the user’s back space – they would go all the way down their back, and connect with the tail at the end. One would be able to spread their wings and tail feathers when they were going to go flying, and they would be able to control their wings and tail in different wind conditions. Landing would be hard, but not too hard; do what birds do – aim for something and fly downwards towards it, then fly up at the last minute, and land on it! You would have to think fast, for at that last minute, you would have to release you legs from the clamp thing to land. It would take A LOT of practice! But it would so be worth it!
*Read my other posts to know what I’m talking about with the ‘controlling the wings with our brains’ thing*
And what about storks and such? And the birds who have long legs; they can keep their legs up most of the time! :)
yeah but their legs don’t weigh anything
Touché. Either way, the leg-holding clamp thing would still work.
lol, so when shall we start?
When the people at the University of Pittsburg School of Medicine have perfected their prothsteic limbs controlled by one’s brain. (Only it would be wings that we would eventually make, not arms or legs). Here is a link to the article, if you want to read about it. (Just copy-paste it)http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080528140245.htm
i think the closest we are to get wings is photoshop.
if you guys would like to get some ideas, check out some of this games like Aion, and God of war II where the characters get wings which i must admit they are very accurate positioned with minor defects.
this is what i started thinking. supposing we have wings in our backs for us to take some lift or even move our wings would be impossible. Would be impossible because WINGS ARE MOVED WITH YOUR PECTORALS NOT YOU BACK MUSCLES meaning your arms must be involved because is the closest thing we are to birds.
So i say we get wings, incorporate some kind of handle and use those handles when we are going to fly using with the power of our arms. i will explain in a picture later.
(so we better start doing some bench presses!)
if you want strong enough arms and pectorals!
Or costume ones. But soon, we could have robotic wings that we could control with our minds, just like real ones! :3
And since they’re robotic, the muscles wouldn’t be real… All the strength would come from the machine, so we wouldn’t look all crazy muscley and armless! :P
You guys keep speaking your minds with out any background or knowledge whatsoever on the matter.
You keep mentioning the tittle of the show and the show, but you mentioning nothing of the backstage,
or simply.. how the show was made possible.
T.V. shows? If that’s a metaphor, than I’m am providing enough information, and links to the rest of it.
pretty much. no one else is.
Your only providing what we already know.
-we want wings
-they don’t have to be real
-mechanical wings..
-same shit..
OK, we got that down.
Now, scientifically and realistically how can we make that possible?
Most of you don’t even know how wings work or have any sort of background knowledge on flight or bird anatomy or any kind of flying related information.
We have a great imagination i’ll tell you that.
Ok, rude dude, that hurt, but I’m talking about this being in the future, as in not possible at the moment! And besides, this site is about wanting wings, not really about how we could get them. (Well it is but not in detail, just vague description-thingies). We don’t want to be bird-people; we just want to fly, so they could be bat wings for all I/we care, and bat anatomy is different – are you an expert at that too? And this is all just a theory, so don’t get so worked up about it.
Actually yeah, I know enough about the bat anatomy as well. XP
And Im sorry, I did not meant to be rude in any way. I found this to be a very interesting subject matter and great affair, but everyone is stating the same opinion, so i ask my self -are gonna do anything about it?-
I gave some information, so some of you can use as reference and think more realistically towards concepts,(because this article brings concept thoughts to you mind whether you like it or not)
but you ignore the info. We can’t be oblivious of the thought that making either birth like wings or bat wings is as complex as a new from scratch air plane.
If your mere goal is to fly.. rent a glider.
That was a nice read
If artificial(robotic/prostetic) wings could be manufactured(and they could) and a robo-nervous interface could be developed(and already are) then the base of the wings could be fused to the back of the ribcage, and the nervous impulses from the brain could actually go to the spine muscles that allow you to bend, and from there go into the robotic wing, therefore allowing articulation and movement with the wing, allowing for flight….in theory of course… ^i^
OK,- this is what i think, the nervous system issue its not a big problem, as it can already be done.
-the manufacturing of the artificial(robotic/prosthetic) wings, i don’t thing that is the biggest problem yet.
-the biggest problem is the muscle issue.
the nervous system impulses can’t do anything if the muscles can’t take the weigh and the low and high pressure of the wind. we might be able to open and close the wings but not strong enough for lift.
*====[so that's the biggest issue]====*
Here is a bit of my concept, hope you understand it lol.
http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll477/7flint7/vintmanwingsConcept2.jpg
Hello jim :) here’s something fir you… Today I heard of something called a morphogenic field… I’m only 12 and I don’t fully understand it.. Go to http://www.sciforums.com search wings in the forum it should come up with a thread that haana first post with someone asking how big wings would have to be to carry a Human being or something… Go to page four, scroll down a bit till you find a post about morohegenic fields… I believe in this persons idea, I also believe that humans will be able to have wings on here back in the future… But I have just thought about something… What if someone uses the idea as a bad thing…for example winged soldiers??? modified troops to super strength… Wars would
Only need two or three soldiers… Good or bad???
Back to the morphegenic field thing http://www.experiencefestival.com search morphogenic field about monkeys cleaning there food
I am only 12 and ive been reading alot of the maximum ride books by james patterson and the way they can fly is tht avian dna was injected into them as eggs but what if humans didn’t have to do that. What if we as humans just try some experements like we did with the bionc arm. The nerves in a birds wings are closely related to the nerves we have in our arm and if we were to also make artifficial lungs like a bird just as we did the heart there should be no problem because dont most nerves go through the spinal area just were the wings should go. All i know is that if we as humans ever achieve this goal i want to be one of the first 10 ppl who try it.
This is my dream and when i get a carrer i wnt this to be my job so i can study more on this and make other ppls dreams come true 2
srry i couldn’t find it. mind sending me a the direct link? thx
Actually i found this article right there. not sure its the same you speak of.
i quote this because its what i been trying to say.
and here is the link:http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=91251&highlight=wings
“To attach something as big and heavy as a wing (think about the size they would have to be to have feasible flight) without having the right muscular structure wouldn’t really be possible without further manipulation of overall body composition. We do not have the pectoral capacity to support wings, and since that is how, in birds the wings are brought through motion, and cosidering the power they would have to have, the pectorals would have to be massive. Supercoracoideus muscles also a problem. Overall anatomy is too different in humans to support wings.
Maybe something mechanical would work better, functioning as a sort of stealthy jet pack i guess.”
——
But in fact, wings aren’t that heavy, which actually make is harder to control.
hey, the link to my idea is here:
i think this is it
so basically if loads of people want wings believe they can have them , it might happen in the future
http://www.experiencefestival.com/morphogenetic_fields
I WANT wings! I’ve always wanted them and I will never give up. I would give all my money (even if it’s not much) to have them! But only “natural” ones. No metal, no engine on my back. The way I would like is bird-style feathers, not even bat or pterosaur wings. But maybe others would like otherwise, they would have a choice. I would also like to keep my arms, I’m not that crazy to give them up for having wings (lol I couldn’t type this comment then).
I’ve been looking around on the net and searching for more data about it, and I’ve found that it may be possible. Based on typical wing loading of gliders (30 kg/m²) an average human like me with 75 kg of weight would need 2,5 m² of wing area. It is possible!
And gliders don’t flap with their wings…
About body modifications: the way they will be done is genetic engineering. It will be tested on computer simulation (may be better in the future as we will know more of the human body and have better computers), rats, guinea pigs, pigs and chimpanzees and then finally volunteers. A weak virus (like rhinovirus) will get the DNA in the body and changes cells. Therefore the modified cells will start to grow that way so wings will grow within a few months (okay, maybe years but it’s still good).
If we make bones hollow, it lightens the body about 5%, but the weight of wings come so it equals to normal weight I think.
As mentioned above, the lungs will have to be more efficient and save space for muscles moving the wings. Wing bones will connect to the spine at around its middle.
Don’t worry about moving them, humans can learn moving machines with the power of their mind if connected to them. Like there was a “game” where pong was played in real but you could only move the paddles by thinking of them (of course with a help of EEG or something like that).
Human brain is very flexible so it will be able to do the task, just we need neural channels in the wings, too. And feedback, it’s very important. Like you don’t break eggs because you feel the pressure with your hand. Feedback can be really important during a flight.
Descendants would get the wing genes also, even if only one parent would be winged (it’s a dominant gene ;)) unless treated by an “anti-virus”. Childs would grow wings and they would be able to fly with them about their age of 8, of course they would not stop growing then. From that age their wings will grow at the same speed as the normal body will.
For those worrying about having those big wings: you could fold them and normally standing they would be a little taller than you with their tips about 10-15 cm above the ground. Calculating with my 187 cm size and if they would be 30 cm taller then me, the total wingspan would be about 600 cm (if we count curves and longer feathers). They would only be a little more wider than you, but if you turn them they will just point behind you being narrow. You could sit or lie on them, they would not hurt, just like your arms or legs. Plus you can use them as a blanket on cold nights or just hug people with them. :)
ok we go the dreams, the desires, and all kinds of thoughts, can we now go on with the actual visible concepts plz. i have already shown mine. but to make it better i need other view points.
here it is again:
http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll477/7flint7/vintmanwingsConcept2.jpg
what materials can we make the wings out of?
some of us want the real bird looking wings.
wouldent it be easer to put wings on an embreo so as the divolipos the wings do to therefore the child is boren with them.
that is indeed a great idea. but what about those that are already born and want wings?
I would love to have wings, and let it be tested on me. I think that the desperate ones(including me)don’t care about what kind of wings they get, as long as they can fly. So if there is enyone who know some serious people who need someone to test wings. Please notefy me.
Ps: I’m from europe.
If biological wings can not be created the mechanicel wings. this would work by creating a part of robotic wings and then like in spiderman with the science that has robotic tenticles (sound crazy but could work) placing the wing on the back (mostly held on by straps and some kind of harness). Insert small electrodes close to the spine then inject a some kind of chemical or hormone that stimulate nerve growth. the electrode will pick up any electical signals. the brain will send signels to the electrode and slow work out that it can get different movements. This methode would take many years of engirneering and physical pheropy. but that will get a pair of wings that could potentionly fly with.
Obviously, this would be possible with the high science out there today. Scientists always experiment on stem cells, so why couldn’t they graft wings on us? Even though for my young age, it would be incredibly painful and just unbarable. However, with my great and almost obsessed idea of having wings, i think i would actually go through with it. Would it be even possible? to graft wings on us? I would be honored to be experimented on if it meant having usable wings.
I agree; I am completely petrified with needles (not because they are ‘painful’, they aren’t), but even thinking about them makes me feel dizzy, but I would go through with the horrid pain and the needles if it meant having wings!
our chest muscles are too small compared to the size of our legs. all the surgery required for a human to take flight would leave us looking like (you guessed it) a bird
Zarnlee, I have the same feeling as you. It’s as if I have wings already on my back, perhaps beneath my skin, that are waiting to burst out. I can feel it now- something that feels like wings tucked up on my back. It feels different to usual though, don’t know why.
Have you guys read the Artemis Fowl series by Eoin Colfer? I have- was thinking maybe develop electronic wings to fly with, like Holly. They could be part of clothing, or be strapped on, or grafted to our bones (painful, though).
Wouldn’t want to lose my hands, though. Not that that happens in Artemis Fowl.
I have read Maximum Ride.
I WANT WINGS!
I’m twelve years old.
Would my age help me have wings?
Probably not. I want to be a scientist and artist when I grow up. I have seen tv programs on DNA modification. I love science!!!
However, if we were able to get the DNA for hollow bones into te human structure, then there would be nothing stopping us. Our weight would be greatly reduced and would thus allow smaller more reasonable wing sizes.
I want to voulunteer for wing-work, if you know anyone who would test me for free, i will go there. I weigh only 120 pounds so I would have smaller wings than others-email me back at brivandale@gmail.com please!
*I would have to have feathered bird wings that were colored dirty-blond so they could match my hair. :P
Oh, me too! I only weigh 100 or so pounds.
So…. how heavy flying nimals may be, or better have been? Some Pterosaur species outweighed us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus 100-200 kilograms of flying beast. But that had its cost, 10-12m wingspan, and an optmized anatomy. We have heavy legs, walking, climbing running… you can do that or fly, the anatomy of all flying species with their lame walking abilities shows that.
Arms to wings, or extra wings would need serious power, and particularly large size. despite folding their wings, when on ground, these behemot limbs were quite hampering the good old Pterosaurs. But still, there might be some useful intermediate space. Sport technology right now teaches something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsuit
And a few brave mad people are experimenting with the possibility of landing that cuteless, but safe. Ok, that’s nota bird’s flight, but at least a flyin’ squirrel flight is in the range of possibilities, these days…